No Sweat Cantonese (Review II)

Right after I finished "A Cantonese Book", I went right into "No Sweat Cantonese" for another go. Everything I said in the first review still holds. The only difference is that I've been in HK long enough and have gone through some other materials enough to get a better idea of what they were trying to explain. It felt less like a book to learn from and more like a practice book for the stuff I learned elsewhere. Anyways, I got through the entire book this time and it was a lot less frustrating. Probably because I just got finished with "A Cantonese Book" and it was tough to consider "No Sweat Cantonese" as a serious source of Cantonese education. It would be like playing basketball with a five year old. I'd get some practice dribbling, but wouldn't break out in a sweat. This is an especially appropriate example since I suck at basketball. As I mentioned in my last review, there were a couple of useful tidbits here and there, but nothing worth the price of the book.

A Cantonese Book (Review)

I picked up this package when I first arrived in HK. At first, I was pretty disappointed that the box was much bigger than the book and 2 CD's that were included; deceptive marketing and all that. Anyways, overall, I enjoyed the set. It didn't cover much, but I did feel like I got a decent grasp of what there was. First the good stuff. Everything was written in characters. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but I had romanization when it is not accompanied by the corresponding characters. There were also plenty of chances to learn to read and pronounce and practice the different grammar structures. There were also a variety of exercises. I'm not sure of how useful they are, but at least I never got bored going over them.

Now for the bad. This book is pretty thin with some big fonts. In other words, it doesn't go over much. A lot of the grammar wasn't very clear and seemed to go for the learn by intuition approach. I've been around enough textbooks to get an idea of what they want to get across, but for someone starting out fresh, I can see how they might get frustrated. Another point of contention is that there were no translations given for the example sentences. I was about 98% sure of the meanings, but that last 2% does a lot for peace of mind.

I don't think it is the best book to learn Cantonese from, but I do think it is a good book to start from, especially when considering the lack of variety and quality in other Cantonese materials out there.

Anki (Review)

Anki is a cool little app. I found online. It is a flashcard program made specifically for Japanese. Automatic kana input, statistics regarding the kanji you have stored, detailed graphs on the progress. Good stuff. However, the program can also be used for other languages or topics. These last two months have pretty much been dedicated to input (2,500 Japanese words and 1,700 Korean words) and review. Took a lot of time, but worth the effort since it helps with retention. This program also uses spaced repition, which is the best way to commit things to long term memory. The extra advantage, though, is that you can decide how far you want to push the next review for a particular word. All it requires is being honest with yourself. This is definitely the best flashcard program I've found. You can download it at http://repose.cx/anki/index.html

Name Change?

I think I need to change the name of the blog. I am studying Cantonese and am making improvements, real or imagined, but I don't think I have enough experience with the language yet to be able to talk about it with any insight.

Words of Encouragement

If 71 million people can speak Cantonese, it can't be that difficult.

Talk Like You Got a Pair

There is a certain rule in language learning that is forever being ignored by the masses. When you are trying to improve your speaking, focus on the people who are the same sex as you. While I'm sure the degree of relevance will differ according to language, in the case of Korean and Japanese, it is the difference between sounding like a man and sounding like a woman in a man's body. It seriously weirds me out seeing a guy refer to himself as あたし like he and the girls went out trying on dresses and getting their nails done. The problem is most guys find some girl to tag along with and start parroting what she is saying. While I very much enjoy the company of the female persuasion, for the sake of language learning, I make sure I have enough guy friends who I can hang out and drink with. With this exposure, I learn to sound more natural. Not just more natural Japanese/Korean. I mean sounding like a man who speaks Japanese/Korean. Frankly speaking, if you are learning your Japanese/Korean from a woman, it is really easy to see and people will not take you seriously. To better illustrate, is there anyone in the western world not on a diet who takes Richard Simmons seriously? Besides, you'll probably get more play sounding like a man. It could be the difference between a great night and being a really nice friend.

The same thing goes for women. Learn your language from other women. Although, to be honest, there is something inherently cute about a girl who talks tough like a man unless the girl sports a butch haircut, has facial hair, and wears fatigues with army boots, in which case, it is kind of intimidating. No offense to any women out there sporting buth haircuts, has facial hair, and wears fatigues with army boots.

Is it sexist? Maybe. Do I care? Not really. Some languages, by nature, have some degree of segregation according to sex and this difference can't be ignored if you want to get good.

In the case of Cantonese, I'm not sure, but to me, it seems that both males and females equally excel at the art of swearing and can make a sailor blush.

I'm Fine, Thank You. And You?

We've all come across them. Those men and women who insist on speaking English to you instead of their native language, the language you are trying to improve in. There are many complaints about someone trying to practice and the person they are speaking to refusing to respond in anything but English. Actually, this doesn't really annoy me. If their English is better than whatever I'm studying, I speak English. If my Korean or Japanese (definitely not Cantonese, yet) is better than their English, the conversation shifts to Korean or Japanese. If we both equally suck, we mix it up. In any case, having the conversation proceed in the language that can be communicated in best is far more important in the long run. The message is more important than the delivery.

Another thing to consider is that knowing a few phrases here and there doesn't warrant the expectation that people NOT speak English to you. To put it bluntly, if you still suck at it, people will speak English to you if they can. Honestly, while I try to be a nice guy and let other people practice English with me no matter how bad it is, it gets annoying quick and I will switch to Korean or Japanese. So in the case of Cantonese, I don't want to torture anyone with my bad Cantonese the way bad English annoys the hell out of me. My ability still has a long way to go before I have the right to expect people to speak Cantonese with me. In my experience, people will speak to you in whatever language you are studying if it is obvious you are good at it or if they have no English ability at all. So if they aren't especially interested in talking to you in anything but English, it might mean you are just not good enough yet.

Once in Korea, I ran into a 7-11 inside a shopping mall to get something to drink. Girl at the counter asked me in English if I wanted a bag. I didn't understand her the first few times until she showed the bag. I said sure. I then asked in English what time the shopping mall closed. She didn't understand so I asked again in Korean. She told me the time and asked me (a little angrily) why I just didn't speak Korean. I reminded her that she spoke English to me first.

Anyways, that is my usual MO. If I speak first, I use Korean/Japanese. If they speak English first, I'll speak English. Eventually, we figure out which is the best to use. In most cases, they are relieved that you speak their language. The only thing that really pisses me off is when my Korean/Japanese is far better than their English and they insist on speaking English because it takes five minutes to say what should only take 5 seconds.

So if we don't practice our language with native speakers (and consequently annoy them if their English is in working order), how can we improve? Besides the obvious of building your vocabulary, studying grammar, and watching tv/movies/etc, a good way to force yourself to improve is to put yourself in an environment where no one speaks English. Kinda difficult in HK, but if you are trying to make people speak to you in Cantonese in Central, you are under some serious misconceptions. Might be easier to move to Sha Tin or Tsuen Wan.

Confidence+Comfort=Better Speaking

I've noticed something these last few days. My Cantonese is FAR from being good, but what little that I know and have tried, no one has said that they couldn't understand me. I've heard so many stories about people struggling with Cantonese pronounciation and many Cantonese speakers not knowing what the gweilo is trying to say. But this hasn't happened to me (yet). I know I don't have great pronounciation. I hardly remember what tone goes with what syllable and I lack the patience to give it much thought when trying to say something.

I think this is the 'talk like you know what you are doing' effect. Basically, if you talk with confidence and comfort and barrel over any minor errors, you appear to be speaking well. To better illustrate, most esl students try to make their English perfect when they speak. Perfect grammar, perfect pronounciation, perfect use of expressions. But in their efforts, any mistakes become more pronounced since they are TRYING SO HARD to be perfect. The result is that the focus of the conversation is less on the message and more on the delivery. I liken this to driving on the freeway. If you try to follow the speed limits (grammar, pronounciation, etc.), your driving (speaking) becomes erratic because you are constantly trying to hit that 55mph mark by gassing and braking. Not smooth at all (I'm assuming you don't have cruise control). In addition, everyone else on the freeway (native speakers) are NOT following the speed limit and are shooting right past you or honking at you to get out of the way.

Anyways, long story short, perfect pronounciation is something we all strive for, but in the meantime, talk like you know how to talk, even if you have to fake it.

Blogs

In my ongoing search for interesting blogs and resources, I ran into some interesting ones from other Cantonese learners.

http://daisann.com/

http://www.cantonese.hk/wp/

http://towerofconfusion.wordpress.com/

I enjoy reading blogs from people who are interested in the same things as me. In this case, learning Cantonese. Please take a look.

Cantonese Romanization

I am really having a hard time with Cantonese romanization. Almost every book about Mandarin or Cantonese talk about the difficulty of tones and describe how one syllable can have different meanings depending on the tone used. Add to this the number of homonyms for each syllable for each tone and the number of similar syllables can reach up to the tens and twenties. Seeing it written down in English makes it extremely difficult to pinpoint exactly what the meaning is. That is why one of my criteria for choosing study materials is to make sure that Chinese characters are included to give me some sort of visual recognition to help me correlate meaning, sound, and tone. Without the characters, I can guess the meaning, but it can vary wildly if I don't have the Chinese character to let me know if mh means 'five' or 'not'.

Numbers

For Xmas Eve/Xmas, I went to a bar with some friends and learned two things: never drink the day before you go windsurfing and how to do numbers in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is definitely a place where drinking is commonplace and drinking games are the norm. One common game involves a guessing game with dice. This game is so popular that almost every bar or drinking establishment will have a full set of dice and cups for every table. The game is easy to pick up, but I don't think I could describe the rules clearly. Anyways, the short version is that you call out how many of a certain number there are until someone thinks it is impossible. For example, if I call out 14 sixes and someone disagrees, the dice are counted and if the number of dice showing six is less then 14, I take a drink. Anyways, a lot of the times, we use our fingers to count out the numbers. 1 to 5 is the same as the US, but 6 to 10 is a bit different.

six: fist out with thumb and pinky sticking out
seven: make and 'L' with thumb and index finger
eight: thumb, index, and middle finger out
nine: index finger hooked
10: crossing index fingers of both hands

I knew about these numbers awhile back but kept forgetting it, but a couple of rounds with the die really burned it in.

No Sweat Cantonese (Review I)

I made it about halfway through this book before I decided to put it aside for awhile. Each chapter was broken down in sections: vocab, conversations, phrases, grammar. This is not so bad. I thought it was a nice layout. The problem is that there were obvious holes in the lesson plans. For example, only the vocab section included characters. Everything else was romanized. Despite my loathing of any book that looks down on its students by only using romanization, this wouldn't have been so bad had there been more explanations about how the elements of the sentences were put together to mean what they mean. Basically, you had a sentence or phrase phonetically written out and its colloquial meaning underneath. There was no way a student could break the sentence apart to see how it worked so that he/she could begin making his/her own sentences. To further complicate matters, almost all chapters used unintroduced grammar and vocab that were not explained until later chapters if at all. There were also plenty of editing errors like multiple tones on one word or typos. The CD also did not always follow the format of the book. The Chinese language font used was also pretty difficult to read; too bulky and unclear.

However, there was some good points. There are little nuggets of value sprinkled here and there such as the high falling tone was not that commonplace or that the 'ng' sound at the beginning of syllables could be dropped completely. Unfortunately, all in all, this is a glorified phrasebook and not a very good one at that. I titled this as Review I because I didn't finish the book. Maybe after I've gained more understanding of Cantonese, I will go back to it to finish it. But for now, it is at the bottom of my list of things to read.

Progress

I can finally get around by taxi without having to repeat myself several times. Woo hoo. I no longer need to get from point A to point B by means of point Q.

Unique Challenges

Studying Cantonese has turned up some unique challenges. I decided to start with "No Sweat Cantonese". It is not as structured or complete as some other books out there, but it offered more practical info that I could use right away like ordering food, asking/giving directions, and using money/making purchases. The biggest challenge for me so far is that the romanization system being used for the characters is kinda clunky. Just looking at the romanization won't always give you the correct pronounciation. How would you pronounce 'neuih'? That means the cd is absolutely essential for the novice. Just having the book won't give you the right pronounciation so you need the cd. When listening to the cd, it is sometimes hard to 'transcribe' the pronounciation and nuances in your head since there is no alphabet you can relate it to. All you have is a romanization system that tries to put you within spitting distance of the correct pronounciation but not always succeeding. This goes for all Cantonese textbooks, not just "No Sweat Cantonese". In comparison, Korean and Japanese both have an alphabet with comparably simpler phenomes than Cantonese. Even Japanese uses hiragana to accurately portray the sound of kanji-based words. Because of the simplicity of the Korean and Japanese sound systems and their use of an 'alphabet', it is quite easy to review with just a book or just a cd. Cantonese has some unusual sounds coupled with the use of tones. Therefore, you need the book and the cd at the same time always in order to match the meaning, character, and pronounciation correctly. You can't do one without the other. That puts me at a slight disadvantage since I like to listen to the cd while I'm out jogging or on the MTR. Also, I won't be able to just pull out the book to look over some words. Once I (hopefully) get better and am more familiar with the sounds and tones, this will no longer be an issue, but in the here and now, I'm just a novice and this is proving to be a pain.

Pimsleur's Cantonese I (Review)

Just got finished (for the 3rd time) with this set. 30 audio-based lessons at 30 minutes each for a total of 15 hours. Honestly, I think the Pimsleur method is fantastic as it forces you to use your brain instead of just parroting whatever the narrator is saying. It is also great because it helps me get a feel for the language and how the tones and rhythms work together. Now for the bad. There were a couple of times where I was not sure if I was hearing what I was supposed to be hearing, but there was no way for me to check since it does not come with any written material. Very frustrating when I had to replay some portion of the tape over and over again trying to figure out what they were saying. In this case, being audio-based is this product's best and worse aspect. Also, this is ridiculously expensive and as much as I like it, it is not worth the money. Better to borrow it from the library or something. That being said, I look forward to sets II and III.

Pimsleur's Cantonese 1

This is the 3rd time that I've listened to this series. The first two times were quite awhile ago so I'm thinking that listening to it again now would be even more beneficial. As a lot of people will tell you, the vocab learned in this series is very minimal, but for me, the important thing is getting into the rhythm of using tones. Will I learn Cantonese with this set? No. But it is good preparation. Besides, it is a good way to kill time on the MTR.

Motivation for Learning Cantonese

Last Sunday, I met a buddy of mine who I went to school with. He, his girlfriend, and I went to Shang Wan for dinner at this chinese restaurant he knew. Great food, as usual, but the real fun was in the ordering. He was Japanese so he could read the characters, but could not pronounce them. Furthermore, he spoke a little Mandarin, which is like speaking Inuit at a Baton Rouge cajun bbq. After miming and a round of pictionary, we finally got our food, but my buddy was frustrated, the waitress was pissed, and me and his girlfriend could barely control our laughter. But the best part of the night was when he tried to order some tea. He points to the teapot which was filled with hot water only and said what what we think is 'I want tea' (in Mandarin). She picks up the pot and pours hot water into his glass of beer. This was definitely one of the funniest dinners I've ever been to. Moral of the story? Learn Cantonese or you will get hot water in your beer.

Shopping for Books

Yesterday, I went out to TST and HK Island to look for some books for learning Cantonese. Everyone told me that I could get by quite easily with only English, but having trouble talking to a taxi driver and not knowing the names of the foods you want to eat convinced me otherwise. I went to Swindon's and Page One in TST and to Dymocks on the island. Dymocks had the best collection and the highest prices. Here is what I got:

A Cantonese Book, by Betty Hung
No Sweat Cantonese, by Amy Leung
Interesting Cantonese, by Susanna Ng

I'll try to give them a review after trying them out, but my learning style has always been to buy a lot of books for a lot of money and then not opening them.